Why should P.I be willing to write strong LOR even if that means losing a undergraduate from his/her lab?r18Jj Oo Ssn l Rr 6Ppe1234t U T P Zcuuued89Aw X Vc
Consider the following case:
You are the head a lab, and there is a particular undergraduate in your lab that you want them to continue their studies in your lab while continuing their Msc./PhD in the current university.
You know that the undergraduate wants to go abroad for they Msc./PhD, but if they can't, they will stay where they are (in your lab).
And they ask you for a letter of recommendation for their graduate studies.
Question:
Why should you be willing to write a strong recommendation letter for them, even though you know that will increase their chance of going to another university for their graduate studies ?
Note that, I've read this question.
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39In order to be a decent person, presumably. – Pontus 18 hours ago
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1@Pontus And assuming no decency ? I mean, the academic environment which I'm in is kind of weird, so even nicest people behave sometimes horribly. – onurcanbektas 17 hours ago
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11well if one is a sociopath who gains nothing internally by considering another person's interests over their own, there may still be negative consequences if you are caught behaving unethically. For one, the students may gain access to the letter by some accident. You may still have more to lose than gain by violating this cultural norm. – A Simple Algorithm 17 hours ago
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2Academia is a pretty small group; whatever discipline you're in, doubly so. If you intend to become known in your discipline (ie: have any success at all) then your reputation will also become known - it is inevitable. What would you like that reputation to look like? – J... 9 hours ago
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1It is sad that the question should need to be asked. Ethics? Honor? Of course, I guess we have too many highly visible bad examples... – paul garrett 5 hours ago
7 Answers
When I am evaluating a research group leader, one of the most important things I examine is where their former students work. If their former undergraduates have moved to PhD programs at excellent universities, that makes the group leader look like an excellent mentor who teaches their students well. This improves the group leader's reputation and helps them recruit new students.
A savvy letter writer also knows that a letter which literally says "This student has excellent achievements x, y and z." implicitly says "I am a good supervisor for helping the student achieve x, y, and z."
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1But, the student will not be listed anywhere as his/her former undergraduate ? Do people list their former undergraduate somewhere ? I only saw that for their current undergraduates/Msc/PhD students. – onurcanbektas 15 hours ago
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3@onurcanbektas They should. Not everyone does. – Anonymous Physicist 13 hours ago
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In many grant applications undergraduates are still considered although usually given less weight than graduate students in the evaluation of the CV. – ZeroTheHero 3 hours ago
Professionalism.
There’s also some measure of self-interest in that a good student moving elsewhere will enhance the reputation of the original group with other researchers and with other students. In particular I note that students talk and if it were broadly known that a PI “torpedoes” good students then the likelihood of recruiting good students would nosedive dramatically.
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1This answer is good balance between self interest and professionalism. – user199 10 hours ago
Yes.
Not doing so is extremely selfish. I don't own the student, and he should be free to pursue his own career goals. If those goals involve studying elsewhere, that's disappointing, but it's still not mine to sabotage (as not writing a strong recommendation letter would be) the student.
The PI should write a reference truly reflecting the skills of the student.
The reference should not be "dumbed down" or "over egged", both practices are incorrect both ethically and professionally.
If this means the student moves on, then so be it. There will always be other students.
It may also mean that the student comes back in the future or they end up collaborating in the future.
First of all, people who choose working in science tend to be decent non-selfish people. Those who are selfish or not decent prefer other occupations. Professors will submit good recommendation letters just because it is the right thing to do.
Second, a professor's salary does not depend on whether his student leaves his lab or not. Professors usually have a permanent position and a fixed salary. There is no direct selfish interest for a professor to keep his student in the lab.
Third, connections and collaborations matter a lot in science. It is often to a professor's advantage to let his student go abroad. The professor can, for instance, indicate his former student as a suggested referee for papers submitted from the lab and can also reach other people via his former student. The more talented the former student is, the more beneficial the connection will be.
Fourth, undergraduate students are generally less valuable than they think. Professors generally encourage and praise them, but the reality is that undergraduate students know almost nothing, cannot write good articles, consume a lot of time and energy of their supervisors, make mistakes in research calculations, etc. Many professors see working with undergraduate students as a duty rather than something beneficial.
For the above reasons, almost any professor is highly unlikely to submit a weak recommendation letter if he is able to write a strong one.
If you are worried that this might nevertheless happen, you can make the following steps to reduce the risk:
Prepare a draft of the recommendation letter and say something like, "I have prepared a draft, and you can modify it in any way you wish." Professors are generally very busy and have neither time nor energy to carefully write strong recommendation letters, but, given a draft, will usually just make stylistic corrections and sign/send.
Carefully choose people whom you ask to write a recommendation letter. If you work in a lab, you may have a few people to choose from. Choose decent people who have neither envy nor strong interest to keep you in the lab. The usual situation is that you have a head of the lab and a mentor, who is subordinate to the head of the lab. Make a wise choice between the two. Consider their human qualities, possible selfish interest, etc. If you make a few different applications, ask different people to write recommendation letters for different applications so that no one will be able to spoil all applications of yours.
Promise to collaborate in the future. Tell them that you plan to build a great career and will always be helpful and thankful. Tell them that after you move abroad, they can indicate you as a suggested referee for papers submitted by them. Promise to be a very friendly reviewer. Say and do everything to ensure that people see your departure positively.
If the recommendation letter has to be sent by email, consider asking to include you in BCC. Just say that you want to be sure that the letter is sent. It will be hard to refuse such a request, and if it is refused, consider asking another person to write a recommendation letter. Analogously, if the recommendation letter has to or can be sent by ordinary mail, consider asking to give you the signed letter. You can then just put it in an envelope, write the professor's address as the sender's address, and send the letter by mail. If the letter can be sent by fax, just get a signed letter and send it by fax. The idea is that if the professor knows you will see the letter, he is unlikely to deliberately weaken it.
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Pre-preparing a reference and giving it to my supervisor would have got short shrift... So, that is obviously very much location specific advice. – Solar Mike 11 hours ago
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1@SolarMike I worked in Germany, Australia, and Russia. In all these countries, preparing a draft is a standard practice. The Russians even have a special slang for a recommendation letter draft prepared by a student: рыба (fish). A typical dialogue: Student: Мне нужна рекомендация (I need a recommendation letter). Supervisor: Без проблем, только дай рыбу. (Okay, just give me a fish). – Sandra 10 hours ago
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@SolarMike In Russia, a "fish" is considered to be needed for two purposes: First, it saves the professor's time, and second, it eliminates the possibility of the student later blaming the professor for writing a letter that was not strong enough. I myself submitted some recommendation letters for students, and I always asked for a "fish." This approach makes both parties happy. – Sandra 9 hours ago
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German and Australian professors tend to not ask for a draft themselves, but are generally happy to get it from the student if he politely gives it and says that it is just a draft that the professor can completely discard or modify as he wants. I myself never faced a negative reaction when I gave recommendation letter drafts written by me. – Sandra 9 hours ago
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1@Kimball People don't become scientists to earn a lot of money. There are much more financially rewarding occupations that require similar skills. Those who choose science tend to be less selfish and more idealistic than average people. It is my overall impression based on my experience. – Sandra 4 hours ago
You are describing one of the many conflicts of interests which can occur in academia.
While in reality, most of the people might be selfish and not professional at this stage, the majority will still be and won't sabotage your future. Worse case they usually don't help you like in the other post you have outlined. I have outlined the possible reasons I have observed why a PI would support you independently of the conflict of interest:
Why? Because it shows that you are a good mentor who can not only support his/her own interests but also of the people around you. It is a sign of both personal and professional growth.
Depending in which country and at which stage of you career as a PI, some people will be interested to know if you have achieved this step personally. One way to show this is that you push these people to continue to work in the academic system and that your mentoring help these people to achieve even greater results.
Alternatively, there is another explanation which occurs in people who are already reached tremendous success. It also personally rewarding in terms of your ego when you see all the people you have mentored working in supporting all the ideas and work you have invested your life in to be carry on in the future. It shows that this topic or area of research is interesting and important. It increases your own importance and relevance for posterity.
Your peers will read them
The audience for your letters of recommendation are your peers who are leading other labs in your field. If the letters they get from you indicate that you're sabotaging your students (and they'll know, they're as experienced as you or more and they know all of the nuances of this process), well, then you'll gain a reputation in your field for sabotaging your students.